tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post5562198685827053848..comments2023-09-22T02:24:42.144-07:00Comments on a light inside: Vampire Dates and other storiesJenna St.Hilairehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16528611770211261141noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-3174941041445595222011-06-01T17:56:01.680-07:002011-06-01T17:56:01.680-07:00Arabella, sorry this is so late! Thanks for your g...<b>Arabella,</b> sorry this is so late! Thanks for your great thoughts. I always appreciate what you have to say, and as noted before, your essay was enlightening and helpful. :)<br /><br />I like your point about Bella finding herself. Reminds me of that line in the Gospels... "For uwhoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it."<br /><br />Also, good points about role models.<br /><br />And now I must run... but I wanted to at least come by and acknowledge your contribution. :)Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-10364046535977196752011-05-30T13:25:55.859-07:002011-05-30T13:25:55.859-07:00Hi Arabella,
I only just remembered this discussi...Hi Arabella,<br /><br />I only just remembered this discussion, and, as my husband is ushering me out of the cafe and back to real life, I can't really respond, except to assure you that my understanding of Twilight-the-series is not based only on the 1st book or the reviews of others. I've read all of them, and her internet unpublished story, as well as quality criticism. So no worries on that front. :) I'll add more later. <br /><br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-56745382524665258572011-05-27T12:38:51.399-07:002011-05-27T12:38:51.399-07:00So, why is Meyer held to a standard other authors ...So, why is Meyer held to a standard other authors aren’t, or her characters given less rounded comprehension? I think it’s probably genre prejudice and because the books are so popular, have gotten a lot of press, and therefore attention from those who have never read the books. I've never seen more hostility toward books not read, except for Harry Potter. People read online or hear their friends talk about it or see the films, and make leaping conclusions. I haven’t seen the films and so can’t judge those, but the mania surrounding the young leads hasn’t helped, either.<br /><br />To best understand Twilight, one needs to see it symbolically, and go much deeper than the surface (plot) reading (or a truncated film). It's critical also to understand the Saga's Mormon framework, and to see it as a transforming Beauty & the Beast, Hero Journey, God/man story. Reading John Granger's Forks Professor posts will help with that, also his terrific book Spotlight: A Close-Up Look at the Artistry and Meaning of Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight Saga, the first serious analysis of the Saga. <br /><br />On to a couple points raised.<br /><br />Is Edward abusive? I don't believe so, as I write in my essay. Bella and Edward both have control issues and their prickly relationship is bound to highlight that. Actually, I think that the Saga takes the reader through a good understanding of why that behavior isn’t fruitful for their love. It’s through their many sacrifices for each other that they learn to overcome those tendencies. I sometimes think the “Edward is abusive” is a shortcut for not looking at the story as a whole.<br /><br />Edward and Carlisle. This is a point that has always bothered me, too. Why does Edward revere Carlisle so much when Carlisle doomed him to a double-sided immortality? Meyer writes in her new Twilight Saga Guide backstory that Edward’s father was emotionally distant and traveled a lot. So I can reconcile that having a father figure was important. But if you understand the Mormon undertones to this, it’s going to make much more sense.<br /><br />Does Bella give up herself? I think the better thought is that she finally finds herself.<br /><br />As far as writing quality goes, Meyer is no stylist, although Twilight is the worst offender. But while the writing underserved the story, the story wasn’t diminished by it, either. <br /><br />With a story like Twilight, you’re either going to like it or you’re not. There is a lot about it that won’t stand up well to minute critique. But I think it stands up remarkably well, and better than a lot of other storytelling going on.<br /><br />But I’m troubled here by valuations based on reading only the first book, or part of the first book and/or book reviews/plot summaries. Is that really a solid base for critique?<br /><br />--ArabellaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-14722829643305433132011-05-27T12:38:22.743-07:002011-05-27T12:38:22.743-07:00Finally, I'm getting to this. Good list in you...Finally, I'm getting to this. Good list in your May 16 comment, <b>Jenna</b>.<br /><br />I can’t possibly address all the thoughts here because of time, but I'm glad if my essay assisted anyone in understanding the psychological aspects of the Saga. Please keep in mind that these aspects are very important, because the characters operate from their pasts. And the pasts of the trio are certainly not the best springboards to healthy behavior. Bella is a child-of-divorce caretaker who has never lived her own life. Only untoward behavior (depression, cliff-diving, marriage) get her parents’ full attention. Edward lost both parents, was made a vampire, and has spent decades trying to reconcile this and find where he fits in. Jacob lost his mother at a young age and is going through the worst puberty ever. So how they behave makes a lot of sense to me and I find it very realistic and relatable.<br /><br />It’s curious that in a time when poor teen behavior is flaunted in books, films, and TV, that Meyer alone has been singled out for censure, and often viciously so, for her characters being or not being “role models.” Why? I read a lot of young adult, and feel Meyer's characters are better role models than many. All YA characters are seeking identity and working through that difficulty, warts and all. If you want to work the “role model” arena, consider Sara Dessen’s characters, who freely drink, smoke, and swear, and can be pretty annoying people. Why are they not criticized as “poor role models”? The writers that deliberately write their characters as “good role models” tend to be writing in the Christian fiction ghetto. Yet Meyer has written one of the most moral, spiritual stories going and is condemned. <br /> <br />So, are Bella and Edward “good role models”? Yes and no, and their deficiencies are dealt with in the Saga. Is Katniss of the Hunger Games a good role model? Ditto. But I’m not seeing Collins getting the kind of unparalleled criticism Meyer has gotten. And Collins’ characters are getting insightful psychological looks. I haven’t seen the same with Meyer’s. When I wrote my essay, I could find nothing else out there.<br /><br />Continued below.<br /><br />--ArabellaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-80270342632330674482011-05-17T18:43:54.209-07:002011-05-17T18:43:54.209-07:00Thanks for your response, and especially for the &...Thanks for your response, and especially for the "Good story, bad writing post!" I'm thrilled to have a lot of response to digest! I'm home after a long weekend with my family, and so I've saved everything to my desktop to read over and respond to Thoughtfully, and not with airplane-brain. :) I hope Lou is safely home and your enjoying his return!Mashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-57740288025096195192011-05-16T21:53:41.981-07:002011-05-16T21:53:41.981-07:00Masha, thanks! I think the response to any book is...<b>Masha,</b> thanks! I think the response to any book is very personal, and always somewhat subjective based on what the reader naturally sympathizes with. It's certainly true of the Twilight Saga, and I'm not offended by responses from the numerous intelligent people I know who couldn't love the story as I did. :)<br /><br />I thought Bella's coming to have some value for herself was part of the point of the series. The end of <i>New Moon</i> includes her finally understanding that Edward loves her, no matter how ordinary she feels next to him. And the thing about her mind that she thought defective turned out to be her great strength at the end of <i>Breaking Dawn</i>.<br /><br />Regarding your question about the seeking of the good and the pure, here's an offhand list:<br /><br />* vampire avoidance of human blood<br />* Edward's insistence on chastity<br />* Bella's discovery of the importance of tradition and marriage<br />* Carlisle's going beyond merely abstaining from human blood to choosing a career where his superhuman strengths allowed him to save lives (notice that as a doctor, the temptation of fresh blood for a vampire would be constant--yet for him, it's basically nonexistent due to his cultivated purity of mind and heart)<br />* Garrett's 'conversion' from standard vampire to choosing Kate and (presumably) her way of life<br />* Jacob's defense of the Cullens when Bella is pregnant with Renesmee, and his acceptance of Seth and Leah<br />* The celebration of Seth's pure, kind mind<br />* Leah's slow and admittedly unfinished progression toward healing<br />* Reconciliation between the Quileutes and the Cullens<br />* The healing of Charlie and Bella's relationship<br />* Bella's choice to carry and bear Renesmee at the risk of her own life, standing up to Edward, though she never had thought of herself as wanting children and sluffed off Rosalie's warning<br />* Bella's forgiveness of and protection over her friends, including Jessica<br /><br />...that's a start, though a sleepy one.<br /><br />Blessings to you, too!<br />JennaJenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-18495893398656896582011-05-14T20:25:02.946-07:002011-05-14T20:25:02.946-07:00I'm glad you didn't think my comment was s...I'm glad you didn't think my comment was snotty! I've participated in too many discussions - online and face to face, where I've forgotten my "tone" and accidentally given offense, so I try to clarify as much as possible. :)<br /><br />As far as being uncool and weird, coolness and normalcy are generally hand-in-hand with imitation, and a life lived in imitation of others is always wasted, as Kierkegaard says. So I wouldn't go for either so much as for honesty and growth. :)<br /><br />It's hard to really respond to your appreciation of the Twilight books because it's so very personal and very much an emotional (as far as I understood it) response to the books. I'm beginning to see why fans of Twilight, and the Harry Potter books too, can get so upset when the books are criticized - especially by people who haven't read them: because (and maybe I'm wrong, you can let me know) it seems to be almost less about the books themselves then it is about the emotions they bring out in their readers. I'm not down-putting your reaction in anyway, but trying to, as much as I can, tie it in with my own experience to understand where your coming from. Feel free to tear this little analysis apart if I'm completely off base. <br /><br />I thought her imagery was weak all around, but, as I've never dealt with agnosticism - I LOVE the way you describe it, by the way - as beauty made ordinary and terror remaining extreme - I can't know whether I would Feel the analogy as you did. The closest I can come in personal experience is Beauty and terror merging in the disquieting brand of Catho-paganism I practiced at one time. Entirely different, almost at the opposite end of the scale of badness, really. I wonder if I were coming from a different way of seeing, the book would have had a similar effect.<br /><br />I also was completely unable to relate to Bella, primarily because I saw her as too willing to give up her Self, and I can see no possibility of love when one of the pair sees herself with no value. You're right though about the common desire for love, and I can see how, if Meyer's concept of love came closer to mine, I could have appreciated that focus in the books more. <br /><br />But again, the ability to relate to a character is so personal. I can't say "well, you're wrong to relate to Bella" because you're not wrong, and if the books encouraged you to move beyond them, and into Christ, then a blessing on Stephenie Meyer for that one!<br /><br />I would like to know, too, in what way you saw the good and pure actively sought in the books, apart from Edward's refusal to "sleep" with Bella before marriage of course. Though I guess you could add the avoidance of human blood. Am I missing anything?<br /><br />Blessings, <br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-22594891652813573142011-05-13T20:01:44.308-07:002011-05-13T20:01:44.308-07:00Before I get started: Congratulations to Maria, wh...Before I get started: Congratulations to <b>Maria,</b> who gave birth yesterday to a baby boy! Mom and son are doing well, as far as I've heard.<br /><br />Because Blogger's outage has at least temporarily lost <b>Masha's</b> comments:<br /><br /><i>Thanks for your response. It was really interesting to read the perspective of someone who didn't see these issues as glaring flaws in the work. I was going to write a whole long response, but then I realized that you've been on the receiving and replying end of the discussion since long before I joined. I'd love to know What it is about these books you love? What appealed to you and made you a fan? I honestly can't say I found anything to like in the books (except that I didn't like them, and sometimes I just love reading frustrating books), but they've obviously appealed to you in a real way, and I'd love to know why and how.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Masha </i><br /><br />and<br /><br /><i>..Ooh, the "glaring flaws" comment sounded snotty after I posted it. It wasn't meant to be at all. Only that I've never discussed the books with someone who didn't either have issues with the misogynistic relationships or the faulty mythology..not because I live in a completely closed off little society of artistic feminists, but because I don't discuss the books often. :) Please don't take it the wrong way!</i><br /><br /><b>Masha,</b> that didn't come off as snotty to me at all. I understood what you meant.<br /><br />Your question is a good one. Frankly, I think what got to me most was the imagery--nothing more so than the picture of agnosticism in <i>New Moon</i> (described a few comments ago.) But also important to me was the portrait of self-denial and sacrifice as the crux of familial love. I was very, very touched by the working out of that concept.<br /><br />I also just appreciate coming across a story where the good and the pure are actively sought. The characters might have issues, but most of them grow and change for the better.<br /><br />Ultimately, I think that a lot of it is also that I sympathized with Bella. I was able to put myself in her place and walk through her apotheosis and feel what she felt. (For the most part.) Her story got inside me and spoke to the painful longings and fears that I have as much as anyone else.<br /><br />And here's where I think I'm the sort of person Meyer wrote it for, at least in that she wrote it for herself. Most teenage girls, as pointed out by both you and Maria, will read the Twilight series and find it stirring their deepest and most desperate yearning to be loved. For that matter, most women will, too. I did. No shame here. But that yearning looks beyond men to God, and for me, the whole series seemed made to help me wrestle with faith and the Person on the other end of it.<br /><br />Which is how I read, honestly, especially since <i>Harry Potter,</i> which I credit as one of the topmost reasons I'm still a Christian. <i>Twilight</i> isn't that, but it was definitely cathartic.<br /><br />That might make me incredibly uncool and weird, but then I'm already outside normal in my circles for having any use for <i>Twilight.</i> :)Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-85826807435283906982011-05-12T05:48:11.222-07:002011-05-12T05:48:11.222-07:00..Ooh, the "glaring flaws" comment sound.....Ooh, the "glaring flaws" comment sounded snotty after I posted it. It wasn't meant to be at all. Only that I've never discussed the books with someone who didn't either have issues with the misogynistic relationships or the faulty mythology..not because I live in a completely closed off little society of artistic feminists, but because I don't discuss the books often. :) Please don't take it the wrong way!Mashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-32449917334065725042011-05-12T05:44:12.016-07:002011-05-12T05:44:12.016-07:00Jenna,
Thanks for your response. It was really i...Jenna, <br /><br />Thanks for your response. It was really interesting to read the perspective of someone who didn't see these issues as glaring flaws in the work. I was going to write a whole long response, but then I realized that you've been on the recieving and repyling end of the discussion since long before I joined. I'd love to know What it is about these books you love? What appealed to you and made you a fan? I honestly can't say I found anything to like in the books (except that I didn't like them, and sometimes I just love reading frustrating books), but they've obviously appealed to you in a real way, and I'd love to know why and how.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-40036057139602807262011-05-10T19:39:47.198-07:002011-05-10T19:39:47.198-07:00Wow, just posted that and I'm already re-think...Wow, just posted that and I'm already re-thinking whether I'll be less irritated at Meyer over the rosary.<br /><br />When it comes to abuse, I should say right off that I'm liable to read with the same blinders Meyer may have worn when writing. My life has been very sheltered from emotional and physical abuse. I've seen it, but only from a distance.<br /><br />With that perspective, I wasn't particularly struck by abusive elements in the story. Bella defied Edward to go see Jacob in book 3, and I cheered her on. She punched Jacob in the face in the same book, and I cheered her for that, too. The way I saw it, she fought to keep both of them exactly where she wanted them, with varying degrees of success. The only instances that I found really disturbing were Edward's sneaking into Bella's room while she slept, especially before asking her permission (Carlisle and Esme, how did you not know about that and put a stop to it?!) and Jacob's making her kiss him (too bad he didn't feel her punch the first time; the second time, when he threatened her with his own death, was incredibly disturbing and just about made me dislike him permanently.) I've got no excuses for either of them, there, or for Meyer--especially as regards Edward's bad behavior. His having the run of her house came in handy several times in the story, but there would have been better ways to introduce that.<br /><br />But... as I say, I'm reading this without a strong concept of abuse, without sensitization to the details. So what doesn't hurt me may in fact be very dangerous to a thirteen-year-old girl caught in school world, where the adults are distant and the boys really do only want one thing.<br /><br />I think you're on to something in pointing out that Meyer seems unaware of it as well. I honestly think she meant well, that she just wrote a story she couldn't resist, and even that she gave it the best of what she had to give at the time. The innocent thought process is much of what I like about the story: Bella trusts very simply and loves very deeply, which I sympathize with, and compared to other teen protagonists, she has an exceptionally clean mind. I love all this. But innocence came with some definite naivete about the average teen girl relationship, Native American stereotypes, history, and the like.<br /><br />Your point about Alice came as a bigger surprise to me, something I'd never really thought about. And yeah, she is a bit manipulative. For me, though, it just sort of seems like... life. Siblings and close friends often push each other into uncomfortable situations, and the less emotionally mature they are, the less likely they are to notice and respect the other person's feelings. All of us are either on one side or the other of that at some point, and quite likely both. I'm not sure what Bella's response ought to have been, if not what it was. Frankly, it's not too far removed from what I do when friends try to get me to party up. :)Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-6748658695819088582011-05-10T18:39:46.574-07:002011-05-10T18:39:46.574-07:00Oh, I forgot--Maria, I've never seen Last Chan...Oh, I forgot--<b>Maria,</b> I've never seen Last Chance Harvey, but I'll note down the name and maybe Lou and I can look into it one of these days. Thanks for the recommendation!<br /><br /><b>Masha,</b> thanks for your extended thoughts! First, I should say that you have some excellent points about Meyer's vampires being sexual but not sensual and much too modern. About the latter, it would have taken some serious research to write the thought processes that someone of Carlisle's time would have gone through, but I would have loved to see that.<br /><br />The alpha and omega of the rosary is the crucifix, so yeah--Meyer was saying "These vampires aren't Dracula." (And possibly making a statement about what a Mormon would perceive as the apostate church, which I try not to suspect her of any more than I can help.) I hadn't thought, though, of the fact that allowing the rosary to repel the Volturi would have defined her characters as evil by nature rather than by choice. That's an interesting point. It softens my irritation somewhat, since she did remove her vampires from the bulk of vampire myth, but on the whole I am decidedly in favor of giving sacramentals their virtue against the demonic.<br /><br />I'm now curious and rather tempted to go read Midnight Sun tonight, but lack the time, so I'll defer. I'm sorry to hear that Mike came off less decent, though, because I always kind of liked him. :)<br /><br />Response to your points about abuse coming up next...Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-58508275699178176242011-05-10T12:01:12.019-07:002011-05-10T12:01:12.019-07:00Maria, by the way..have you seen "Wings of De...Maria, by the way..have you seen "Wings of Desire"? It's an older German movie that I think City of Angels was based on. It's better, not perfect, but definately visually more interesting than anything with Nicholas Cage!Mashahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943998810222103926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-42142882011503862112011-05-10T08:30:17.007-07:002011-05-10T08:30:17.007-07:00The boys aren't the only ones to objectify Bel...The boys aren't the only ones to objectify Bella though. Alice, her "best friend," uses Bella like a doll, dressing her up, playing "party Bella" and in general using Bella to fulfill fantasies of human life. Alice is manipulative, over-bearing, and insistent - almost bullying (in a middle-school, popular girl sort of way). She rarely if ever shows any regard for Bella's feelings on any of the activities she forces her into. Meyers may be trying to show Bella's self-sacrifice, her desires make people happy, but as Bella has almost no limits to what she'll allow to be done to her, she appears more needy and weak-willed, and her relationship with Alice seems less and less like a true friendship.<br /><br />These are obviously completely different - less artistic and more moral criticisms of the books than the mythological and the general "overproduction" feel of the writing, but they are some of the most significant. I would love to hear your responses and impressions of this aspect of the books. <br /><br />Blessing to you both!<br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-25747913049883988972011-05-10T08:16:49.434-07:002011-05-10T08:16:49.434-07:00But the most distrubing issue for me in the books ...But the most distrubing issue for me in the books (and actually, the only reason I read them in the first place) is the glorification of unhealthy relationships. If you've ever watched a friend descend into an abusive relationship, it will be easy to spot the pattern in Bella's relationships with Both Edward and Jacob.<br /><br />Both the boys "love" Bella in a consuming, all-encompassing sort of way. They both focus their lives around her to such an unhealthy extent. I realize that Meyers is trying to portray the over-blown, "you are my destiny" style romance of the Bronte's and other romantic, gothic writers, but it really brings to mind the Mark Walberg film "Fear" or the stories of so many young women dating men who "love them" so much that they get uncontrollably angry when she does "dangerous" things, hover around her, can't bear to be apart, are extemely jealous of her male friends, and makes decisions about their relationship without consulting her. Edward and Jacob both fit the profile, Edward is the worse of the two, though that may be only because he has more control over Bella. And Bella is almost overdone as a typical victim, she defines herself in relation to him. When he leaves, she has to find another boy to attach herself to in order to feel semi-whole again. Her sense of self-worth is absolutely non-existent. <br />If this were done as Nabokov does Lolita, it wouldn't be problematic, just an examination of the destructive effects of abusive relationships, but both boys are portrayed positively, Meyers seems unaware that Bella is abused and objectified throughout the books. I'm assuming it's because she has never witnessed or experienced abuse, and because she's a bit over-dosed on romantic novels, but idealizing such a relationship, especially in a book primarily marketed to teen girls, who tend to struggle with the desire to be absorbed in a relationship, is irresponsible and extremely harmful. I shudder when I hear girls say they want an Edward, or a Jacob of their own. Teen girls have so much to struggle against, they don't need to be told that romance and abuse go hand in hand.Mashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-14700899537267073892011-05-10T07:55:20.200-07:002011-05-10T07:55:20.200-07:00Thanks to you both for the welcome!
With the myt...Thanks to you both for the welcome!<br /><br /> With the mythological issue, my trouble is less that they attempt to overcome their nature than that they aren't vampires. There are other mythological creatures that drink blood, and blood-drinking is really the only thing that links this crew with the concept of vampire. And you're right that my biggest issue is that she altered the myth to fit her idea, which is too common in fiction now - even Anne Rice doesn't alter the essential aspect of the vampire - which is pure,dark sensuality. Meyer's vampires are decidely unsensual. They're sexual, but not sensual, and they are so decidely modern that it's really impossible to believe any of them are older than they appear. I can see why the lack of religious protection against the vampires offended you, Rice does the same thing in her books, though it's more understandable in her case, because she wrote as an atheist. But really, if Meyers' had presented the rosary as having some protective power against the vampires, she would have been presenting the vampires as evil creatures, which would have made Bella's choice to become one more obviously a rejection of all good out of a selfish refusal to give up her "vampire" boyfriend. Sacramentals have power over the demonic, which is why traditionally they would defend against vampires, but Meyers would rather her vampires have a choice between acting in a good or evil way, which removes them from the vampire myth, and any protection traditionally given by the Church. But it does give a very secular flavor to the books.<br /><br />Mike is much less decent in the supplemental story. And it's her concept of "typical" high-school that disturbs me the most with her view of humanity. I have to admit I wasn't really thinking outside of most of the high-school characters. :) Mike, Jessica, etc are presented as normal high-schoolers. In Midnight sun, she even has Edward especially surprised by the goodness of Angela and Ben, because the minds of everyone else are so awful. This is completely unrealistic and unkind. The Actions of many high schoolers are often unkind, but their minds, no matter where they fall on the social spectrum are generally better than that.Mashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-20613973363898268892011-05-09T20:49:00.268-07:002011-05-09T20:49:00.268-07:00Maria, LOL--I don't think there's ever bee...<b>Maria,</b> LOL--I don't think there's ever been a person more quotable than Oscar Wilde. Also, you've given me another reason to never ever watch City of Angels: lame, cruel, stupidly tragic ending.<br /><br />As for the question of Bella's choice, it has never bothered me, but it's absolutely possible that I haven't thought through the implications. At any rate, I'm open to the possibility that I'm just dead wrong. :)<br /><br /><b>Masha,</b> welcome to the conversation! I'm glad you jumped in. I'm actually very curious about your point that <i>"It seems in her books that 90% of the population is selfish, unkind, ignorant, and dishonest - the supernatural beings and Bella's family excepted."</i> While a couple of Bella's school friends are kind of nasty at points, some of them--Angela and Ben, sometimes Mike, Billy Black, Sue Clearwater, etc. have always seemed like positive characters to me. And even the bratty or tasteless behavior of Jessica and Tyler and Lauren just seems like typical high school stuff to me.<br /><br />Edward tends to be dismissive of others, but he sees everyone's thoughts--not a good way to get a good impression of even decent people. Now, granted, I haven't read Midnight Sun, the supplemental piece from Edward's perspective. Arabella keeps telling me to do that, and I keep forgetting. But it wouldn't surprise me if I agreed with you about his perspective giving offense. Edward is such a hopeless character that he might well think badly of almost everyone.<br /><br />I will also agree with you that the speed with which the books were written and published really shows, and that it is a weakness.<br /><br />To you and <b>Maria</b> both, I think there are two different issues going on with the mythological question. While I loved the idea of a vampire denying his depraved nature, however weak the execution, you are certainly right that Meyer shaped her vampire mythos to align with her original dream rather than vampire mythology in general. I've heard other readers complain about this as well. The glittering in sunlight rather than getting burnt to a cinder is perhaps the biggest named issue, but it also troubles me that humans have no wards, no recourse against the predators.<br /><br />Though Dracula was a good book, it was too chilling to make me want to read Anne Rice and friends, so Meyer's changing the myths didn't matter as much to me--except for one thing. The Volturi murder of the woman praying a rosary is, in my mind, perhaps the single most offensive thing in the entire series.<br /><br />At any rate, I don't see you as nit-picking. :)<br /><br />A blessed belated Mother's Day to you, too! We sang the Regina Coeli and Arcadelt's Ave Maria at Mass. Just lovely. :)Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-67826473871363322832011-05-09T10:09:04.078-07:002011-05-09T10:09:04.078-07:00Hi, Masha! Thanks for joining in. I'm eager ...Hi, Masha! Thanks for joining in. I'm eager to hear the rest of your thoughts. I hadn't considered the idea of Meyer not respecting the mythological rules about vampires but I don't think that bothers me as much as the other problems. Like Jenna, I thought the idea of a vampire denying his depraved nature is a bit ingenious and makes a good image of the way mankind similarly has to strive against his wounded nature. So I have to say that concept appealed to me once Jenna pointed it out. But I agree with your other points and am eager to hear the rest of your ruminations on the subject.<br /><br />Cordially,<br />MariaMarianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-85980208135421571372011-05-08T13:52:08.458-07:002011-05-08T13:52:08.458-07:00As for my mythological issues with Meyers, I simpl...As for my mythological issues with Meyers, I simply don't believe authors ought to use mythological creatures if they refuse to show any respect for or understanding of the mythology itself. Myths can vary to a certain extent, in vampire mythology, for example, there are vampires that feed on blood, on energy, and on sexual encounters, but they are by nature evil, draining, destructive, and they cannot abid the light. Once you take a "vampire" out of this context, you don't have a vampire anymore. Meyers would have been better off inventing a new creature, altering the myth this completely destroys the power of the myth. Meyer's does to folk mythology what Dan Brown does to Christian myth - she plays and alters with no respect for symbolism and meaning. Unlike Dan Brown I doubt she's doing this intentionally, but it's problematic, and part of the post-modern mindset, to assume that "I" have the power to alter meanings to fit my purpose. If I look at a horse and call it a cow, it becomes a cow. If I create a character that only vaguely resembles a vampire, I can call it a vampire and get away with my distortion. <br /><br />Maybe this issue isn't as important to most readers, but because of the mind-set it comes from and contributes to, it really is a valid criticism. I hope you don't see it as nit-picking.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-86782808444150815952011-05-08T09:53:05.044-07:002011-05-08T09:53:05.044-07:00I really do feel like I shouldn't intrude on t...I really do feel like I shouldn't intrude on this conversation, I'm really enjoying just following the discussion, and I'm uber-impressed by the charity in both of you! I hope that any comments do add come across as I intend them to - as kind and respectful as all the preceding.<br /><br />I do feel the need to jump in though, because I do have such strong feelings about certain trends in popular fiction, and in Twilight, it seems many of them come together. One of the most disturbing for me it the huge number of authors who publish interesting "ideas" that have never really been worked through, or edited properly by they author. The point seems to be publication more than the actual making of a piece of fiction to be proud of. Everything is too immediate. I hope, and feel that if Stephenie Meyers had thought about her story, she would notice the complete dismissal of the majority of her minor characters, the dimishment of their humanity and the negative presentation of their motives and intentions. It is mainly an implied and underlying aspect of the books themselves, but the attitude is very much present, and the "supplemental-from-Edward's perspective" on Mrs. Meyer's website is overt, and honestly, offensive. <br /><br />It seems in her books that 90% of the population is selfish, unkind, ignorant, and dishonest - the supernatural beings and Bella's family excepted. This is a completely unjust view of humanity, and the idea itself is problematic in that it creates an "us vs. them" mentality with destroys our ability to truly Love our fellow man.<br /><br />I am not saying that this is how Stephenie Meyers Sees humanity, but this is how she presents her view of humanity, which indicates, at best, a failure to communicate her understanding, and a failure to understand the ideas she is presenting.<br /><br />I hope this doesn't sound wretchedly harsh. I next want to mention my trouble with her mythology, and the negative aspects of Bella, Edward, and Jacob's relationship - especially relating to teen-girls tendencies to enter into abusive, all-encompassing relationships, but I'll breathe for a moment, and allow you to do the same. :) <br /><br />I hope, Jenna, that you don't feel at all "ganged up on" by my jumping into the converstation. I'm fascinated by the response the books have created in you, and especially, coming from such a different background. But I do really appreciate the invitation to participate in the discussion!<br /><br />Blessed Mother's Day to you both as you bask in the love of the Theotokos!<br />MashaMashahttp://www.cyganeria-masha.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-17941166960468351932011-05-08T06:28:33.628-07:002011-05-08T06:28:33.628-07:00WOW! That is powerful imagery indeed, as you appli...WOW! That is powerful imagery indeed, as you applied it. Fascinating. Okay, another point granted.<br /><br />Thank heaven that you too hate the song "Iris". It's always nice to have one's own violent prejudices validated by a person of taste...Oscar Wilde says people of similar opinions are always delighted to compliment one another on their good taste. <br /><br />Incidentally, I was just recapitulating the plot synopsis of the movie "City of Angels" to Dan and suddenly it struck me as wildly funny that Meg Ryan gets hit by a truck because she's so happy that she decides to ride her bike with her eyes closed. What a just ending for such a character. I literally can't stop laughing. Who on earth wrote that part of the story and how did it get past the editors?<br /><br />Back to Twilight. I'm still unconvinced that Bella's transformation is an act of love on her part or Edward's. I do see what you mean about allowing the author to construct her own mythology but there seem to be some metaphysical limits on that. The basic rules of philosophy and reality still apply even in a fantasy: a thing cannot be and *not* be at the same time and in the same manner, and so forth. But maybe I just can't make the leap in my head. I suppose that's possible. At any rate, I don't see how it can work if the basic rules of right and wrong still apply in Meyer's world.<br /><br />Thank you for posting that Jane Bennett quote, by the by. I had forgotten how great Austen really is. Thank you also for indulging my wish to have a conversation about these books and for going to the trouble of explaining things to someone who has never read most of the series. It was highly enjoyable and helpful.<br /><br />On an unrelated note, Dan and I just saw a movie that was actually worth seeing. I tend to have stringent standards for movies. Unless the thing is well-made and fairly clean, I won't waste two hours on it and I actually resent movies that turn out to be bad. :) <br /><br />So I am happy to report that "Last Chance Harvey" is the best movie I've seen in a long, long time. It stars Dustin Hoffman and Emma Thompson as well as an excellent supporting cast, and it's a very simple film. It's funny but it also has a lot of sorrow. As Dan says, "It's about real life." I would watch it again and I would actually buy it, which is saying a lot. I am kind of surprised that I haven't read any good reviews of it in the Catholic publications because it's clean as a whistle (exceedingly rare in a romantic movie) and there is even an even rarer moment of painful clarity on the culture of death, in a film that otherwise has nothing to do with that topic.<br /><br />Like I said, it is a very simple film. I'm always wary of hyping people's expectations of a movie because it may not strike them in the same way, but Dan and I both thought it made for a great date night and I think you and Lou would appreciate it. Plus I'd be thrilled to read your review of it. :) The director actually bothered to make it a work of art and not just another throw-away. A lot of movies are made merely for the sake of entertainment and those typically don't interest me. (I also just watched "Letters to Juliet" and it was fairly stupid; not offensive or harmful in the least, which is a lot to say for a romantic comedy at this point in our culture, but it was nothing that I'd pay money to see or ever watch again.)<br /><br />Aw, and thank you for wishing me a happy Mother's Day! It's been great so far. Dan bought me an entire package of Klondike Bars...of which he has eaten two and I haven't had any. Don't worry, I'll get around to them. <br /><br />Happy third Sunday of Easter, too! He is risen, Alleluia!<br /><br />Love,<br />MariaMarianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-11574198678158916492011-05-07T13:02:57.305-07:002011-05-07T13:02:57.305-07:00New Moon spoilers ahead, in case anyone reads this...<b>New Moon spoilers</b> ahead, in case anyone reads this and doesn't want to know.<br /><br />Brief personal admission: agnostic tendencies have been a struggle for me for several years, following an experience that made it quite clear that either I was wrong about who God was or about the nature of my relationship to Him.<br /><br />When Edward leaves Bella at the beginning of New Moon, he says "It will be as if I never existed." And he's thorough. He takes his photos out of her album and hides the CD he gave her. She blinks, and he disappears. He leaves town, doesn't contact her, and even convinces his family to vanish with him.<br /><br />And she starts having these dreams--of standing in the woods, completely and totally alone. So alone that she wakes up screaming, every night. She drives to his house one day, by herself, and the well-off-the-road place is just...empty. Braving the reports of large bears or wolves, she hikes to the meadow where Edward first said he loved her, and it's just an ordinary meadow. She can no longer see the intense beauty she remembered. And then a vampire steps into the meadow. A red-eyed, thirsty vampire, ready to kill her.<br /><br />That is <i>exactly</i> how I felt, facing the loss of my faith, of the concept of a loving God. The deepest beauty in life...gone. Made ordinary. But only the beauty. The nightmares, the horrors, still existed, only without mitigation.<br /><br />It's in that moment of utter danger that Bella hears Edward's voice, telling her what to do, coaxing her to distract the vampire until the werewolves show up. It's a long time before Edward comes back. But that little taste of him, that little unconscious hint that he still loves her (one of several) is the sort of thing she lives for until she finally gets word of him.<br /><br />And while I never got to courting danger like Bella does, I know how <i>that</i> feels too.<br /><br />So... I've had three late nights this week and am not at all confident that these comments are coming out with any fluency. Do let me know if you want me to explain myself.<br /><br />Happy first Mother's Day!Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-66202750027690666922011-05-07T12:12:56.721-07:002011-05-07T12:12:56.721-07:00Okay, Bella and lust.
Almost all of Bella's b...Okay, Bella and lust.<br /><br />Almost all of Bella's behavior from meeting Edward to finally promising to marry him is lustful and selfish rather than loving. Oh, she has her moments. Going to save him from the Volturi at the end of <i>New Moon,</i> for instance, although even there she could have at least given her father respectful treatment. For the most part, she acts like an uninhibited teenage girl who wants what she wants and will do anything to get it. I've no intention of defending her for such actions.<br /><br />Led by Edward, sometimes Carlisle, and sometimes even Charlie, she develops a better understanding of love throughout the books. When she agrees to marry Edward and let Alice plan the wedding, she's accepting tradition, the idea of a love that is bigger than her own selfish desires, that gives the rightful role to her family and community. It's one of my favorite things in the books.<br /><br />In Meyer's mythology, Bella has the choice to live an immortal life still subject to temptation, and she takes it with every determination to stay murder-free. She has the example of Carlisle, who has never killed. And while she's terrified that she'll fail, her determination proves successful; she manages to avoid several potential murders in her first few days as a vampire. She <i>does</i> nearly kill Jacob, though, for totally non-vampire-related reasons, and I almost wonder if a more experienced writer might have made that more shockingly realistic and important.<br /><br />As for City of Angels, I've never dared to watch it as I've assumed it would upset me. And I cannot abide that Goo Goo Dolls song. :)<br /><br />Here's where my Jane Bennet side may be kicking in, though: I read all romantic stories written by anyone with any degree of Christian faith as symbolic of our relationship to God. Put that in the context of leaving God's heavenly glory for an earthly sexual relationship, though, and you've just totally killed it for me. Which makes the tale just a romance, and therefore less interesting (and possibly idolatrous.)<br /><br />Bella has no formed concept of God, heaven, or glory. All she has is this supernatural bond with an immortal creature. And while her tale has some nice symbolism, it's not allegorical, and Meyer developed the concept the only way it could really work out.<br /><br />Hopefully that makes sense.<br /><br />Agnosticism in the next comment--I just remembered that you asked about that. :)Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-45681782209758638342011-05-06T16:08:50.930-07:002011-05-06T16:08:50.930-07:00"You seem to be set on finding good in everyt...<i>"You seem to be set on finding good in everything, Madame Library Lily."</i><br /><br />Thanks! It's true, but I'm afraid I can be a little bit of a Jane Bennet about it--as in "What a stroke this was for poor Jane! who would willingly have gone through the world without believing that so much wickedness existed in the whole race of mankind, as was here collected in one individual.... Most earnestly did she labour to prove the probability of error, and seek to clear one, without involving the other." :)<br /><br />Also, I probably enjoy the emotional baggage too much.<br /><br /><i>...the one thing I am still unsatisfied about is that Edward's life is a life of suffering and he allows Bella to take on that same perpetual suffering. It seems to me that he ultimately chooses to gratify himself rather than choosing what would be best for her.</i><br /><br />Considering that life involves suffering and a pretty constant sense of dissatisfaction and of a lesser existence than we were meant for, that we are all subject to the temptation to commit grave sin, and that we go on existing anyway, I'm not particularly troubled by the fact that Edward allows Bella to choose a life that involves suffering and feeling unsatisfied. Of course, regarding the perpetuity, you have a point that I'd absolutely have to grant except for one thing: that existence is a physical impossibility in reality. God did not actually give us that choice, and therefore different rules may apply.<br /><br />Also, Bella chose that life. Edward would have had to force her not to, and God doesn't even force us to stay out of hell.<br /><br />Back for Bella's lust, City of Angels and the Goo Goo Dolls later! I've got to get dinner made <i>now</i> if I expect to feed Lou before taking off with the girls for the evening.<br /><br />Glad to hear things are stable with the baby for now, and I'll keep praying that they stay so!Jenna St. Hilairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04474588706124865006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22927650.post-26381757818589998842011-05-06T07:16:28.466-07:002011-05-06T07:16:28.466-07:00** Oh my word, I just read a plot synopsis of that...** Oh my word, I just read a plot synopsis of that movie "City of Angels" (I have never seen it, only heard the basic plot described a long time ago, and I wanted to make sure I was thinking of the right movie) and I almost threw up everything I just ate. Thank goodness I never haplessly happened to see it -- I would be so angry at never being able to get those two hours of my life back! It was apparently even worse than I had imagined. <br /><br />Perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on people -- after all, pop culture is merely a barometer of how far we are from God as a society. If you've never known God's love you can't know what you're rejecting. I guess it's just sad and horrifying that a movie with that kind of plot would be so successful and really accepted without comment by the culture. I was pretty young when it came out so I don't remember anyone voicing any kind of objection to it but I suppose if you haven't got the eyes of faith you wouldn't see anything wrong with it. It's sad though...I remember having a friend in high school who absolutely loved that song "Iris". She hadn't been raised in any faith so romantic love was to her the source and summit of our existence rather than Love Himself. She was a sweet girl.Marianoreply@blogger.com